Re: Training and collars

["Greg, Lisa, Holly & Kasey Cooper" <gscooper@uswest.net>]

Hello everyone.  WARNING: This message is longer then I entended.  I'm Lisa
Cooper the mother of Kasey, of the moon litter.  I haven't taken the
opportunity to write you all, but you have hit on a topic that is near and dear
to the Coopers' hearts.  Kasey and the Cooper family (Holly 8 yr daughter, Greg
husband, and I) just finished a six week Puppy Kindergarten class from a local
trainer in Clark County WA.  Kasey our former sock eating, 40 something pound
moon puppy is always so excited to meet and greet new people and fellow
canines.  However he hasn't befriend our new trainer.  Mouthing and pouncing on
the trainer at first sight of the first class created quite an impression with
her.  She made the comment that this is a troubling temperaments she has seen a
lot in goldens lately and she didn't really understand why this is being
brought out in the blood line. I don't know what that was suppose to mean?
Now we were insulted, but brushed it off as Kasey was just a puppy in a new
environment.  Other then trying to keep Kasey under control , we all did great
learning new commands.  Kasey has learned Come, Sit-Down-Sit, Stand-Down-Stand,
Heal, Leave-it and Stay. All of which he does exceptionally well with treats
when we are in our back yard. We only work with Kasey about 15 mins per day on
all his commands, this seems to be enough for our hyper puppy.  Holly and Kasey
are doing pretty good on  these commands, she just needs to use a louder voice.

Anyway back to the class.  At the beginning of the first class the trainer went
over the collar options, including all the ones mentions in the previous
messages.  She recommended the training nylon collar that tightens under the
neck like a choke chain or the halter head collar.  She thought the two Labs,
the Shepherd and Kasey should have a head collar.  She talked about how this
collar rested on nerves that helps calm the dog.  We chose not to the try the
head collar because I was not familiar with this type of collar and wasn't
interested in trying everything this trainer wanted to sell us.  So every
Tuesday we went to this class watching Kasey jump and mouth the trainer.  Each
time Kasey mouthed or jumped she would give us suggestions that should work in
breaking  these habits.  She said to try "Bitter Apple" spray on our hands to
prevent the mouthing.  This works as long as you have it with you and spray
people that approach Kasey before they got to him.   She asked us to ignore
Kasey when we first greeted him if he started jumping.  Both worked, but
consistency was important.  The one thing she suggest that worked the best was
to not touch Kasey and  make him sit when we greeted him.  Only pet and praise
him after he sits.  If he starts to mouth put the hands behind the back until
he stops.  This has really started to work.  He now knows  to sit anytime he
greets us.  We really need to keep working on the unfamiliar people that
approach him.

Anyway back to the collar.  The class was going well, except Kasey would not
stay focused.  He would get really distracted , more so then any of the other 6
dogs in the class.  Three of these dogs had head collars.  The trainer kept
insisting that we try a head collar on Kasey because he was having a difficult
time staying  focused.  We continued to refuse the offer, and insisted that we
would just keep working with him.

The last class- all the dogs including the three dogs with the head collars
where focused, and well behaved.  Kasey was still not very focused, and still
trying to jump and mouth the trainer.  So she said please let's try a head
collar, you will see the difference.  So I allowed her to put this collar on
Kasey.  He hated the collar and was acting like a wild horse that someone was
trying to break.  I almost started a fight with this trainer, determine not to
let this trainer that I have grown to dislike, humiliate my dog in class.  I
kept my emotions intake for a few more minutes.  Within no time at all, Kasey
was relaxed and focused.  The trainer was having him do every command without
any problems.  I was amazed.  So I worked the rest of the class with this
collar.  I was amazed at the different that this collar has made.  We took the
collar home.  I have used it for a week every time we take Kasey out into
public.  We were instructed not to ever pull on his head because it will damage
the tendons and nerves.  So we have been extremely careful.

I am still not convinced that this is the best collar and all the messages
regarding training and collars has been very educational.  I would prefer not
to use this collar but I do see the difference.   We still don't know what
direction to go with the collar.

Gina thanks for your thoughts on training. One things for sure, we are
switching to a different trainer, Columbia Dog Academy over by PDX.    Anyway
that is enough rambling from me.  Maybe I will try to write more often.  Thanks
for all the great messages, we really enjoy hearing from you all.  I bet you
are all glad I don't write too often,
Love our "Moon" baby, Lisa Cooper

Bill & Patti Oftedal wrote:

> Hi Macen and Lori,
>
> It looks like that Bogey and Diablo are very similar on temperament,
> I don't have to use any training collars for him, he's good on not pulling.
> We are using (if I need one) the adjustable choke collar, made it out of
> nylon and they come on different width, from 5/8" to 1".
> In Valdez we have no puppy or training classes of any kind, so I get
> books or videos, and traing myself first and then I teach my dogs.
>
> Love
>
> Patti. (Diablo's and Goldie mamma)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Macen Shinsato <macen@foxinternet.net>
> To: brierpups@fast.cs.utah.edu <brierpups@fast.cs.utah.edu>
> Date: Monday, October 16, 2000 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Training and collars
>
> >Hi Renee,
> >
> >Thinking has changed so much on collars since
> >we had our first Golden in obedience classes
> >12 years ago!  Then, we were told to buy a flat
> >link choke chain and taught to use it correctly--i.e.
> >a short, sharp tug and quick release.  The flat link
> >chain seemed to cause less hair loss for our dog's
> >long hair.  Prong collars were only advised for
> >out of control and potentially dangerous animals.
> >
> >I was appalled to find current trainers recommending
> >prong collars to everyone when we started Bogey's
> >training.  I understand the difficulty of using a choke
> >chain without choking the dog--but it seems training
> >classes are mostly for the owners anyway--isn't this
> >trainable?  The prong collars just look awful!
> >
> >We found a fourth option which worked well for Bogey.
> >It is a collar made of wide fabric which acts like a choke
> >chain in its action but is not as harsh or potentially
> >damaging to the dog's throat.  We were able to get it
> >at our tiny neighborhood pet store and I've seen them at
> >large stores like Petco but don't remember what they're
> >called.  Bogey has always been a really calm guy--not
> >a lot of pulling on lead.  So this collar was really great
> >for him.  I'm not sure how it would work for a more
> >rambunctious dog.  Just thought you might like to know
> >of one more option.  It will be really great to hear what
> >all the trainers on the list think about training collars.
> >
> >Good luck with those classes.  Lori
> >
> >"J. Renee Brooks" wrote:
> >
> >> start her basic obedience class.  We had the first orientation class
> >> without the dogs where they went over many things I already knew, but
> >> they brought up collars.  Leigh and I have discussed this issue with
> >> Gina before, but I would like to share with you what "Best Friends
> >> Obedience School" had to say and get your input because I am still
> >> struggling with what to do.
> >