Re: Training and collars- way long!

[Gina Heitz <brier@oregonsbest.com>]

>her.  She made the comment that this is a troubling temperaments she has 
>seen a
>lot in goldens lately and she didn't really understand why this is being
>brought out in the blood line. I don't know what that was suppose to mean?

Hi All,

I don't have much time the next few days but since I read this and was as 
well insulted I wanted to make a few statements. :-)

1. Some of these puppies do grab, and mouth.  What is weird is that neither 
their mother or father exhibit this behavior.  Some of the Meg Triple 
puppies do this and I think Bogey who is Triple and Sprite as well did 
this.  It's not an awful trait, it's certainly not something we have bred 
for.  It's annoying and if not curbed will continue to be annoying but it 
is in now way a troubling temperament issue.

2. What it is, is a fold of things:   Excitement, dominance, insecurity, 
miss guided retrieving instinct,  and a control issue on both ends.  To 
combat it I totally disagree with the advice Lisa and family were 
given.  Of course you have to have control over your dog and understand his 
excitement level and work with it but to expect a puppy this age to sit 
quietly and be greeted is absolutely ludicrous!   If anything that creates 
more pent up frustration and mentally reenforces the behavior and aids in 
the detraction factors.

3. the best way we have found to combat this is to: A. Never greet these 
puppies with a lot of excitement in your voice, be calm and ask others to 
as well be calm, no high pitched greetings of excitement.  Don't ignore 
them but don't feed into it either.  B. be armed, take a terry towel roll 
it up tight and tie it off, have it handy when going to greet and when 
puppy grabs for body parts shove the towel in his mouth and say fetch!  BTW 
your training here using their natural retrieving ability with them or 
against them depending on how you look at the glass 1/2 full? 1/2 empty? C. 
some times this behavior is magnified first thing in the morning when 
released from the crate too happy to see you...  So don't release 
them.  Have them stay in the crate watch (or hear you if the can't see 
you)  you move about a bit before you let them out. D. Second case scenario 
is in way excitable surroundings like obedience class.  First and foremost 
don't be a bell tapper, don't be the last one to class and expect this type 
of puppy to buckle right down to work.  These are the extra social of the 
group and they wanna play.  Be the first one to class and don't treat this 
as a social time.  Get your dog under control and have him sit 
quietly.  Ask others to not allow their puppy to engage your puppy in play. 
This is not a play environment and while yes we make training fun it's not 
a free for all time.  E First and foremost really:  Disregard what all the 
books say about not paying attention to your puppy before your going to 
train.  Many books will tell you to put your puppy up so he's excited to 
see you and he will work better for you.  Well this is not the case with 
this kind of a dog.  This kind of a dog needs lots of exercise and this is 
how he's telling you this!  So these guys you run out before class, get 
them tired and then the focus will come.

OK just really briefly on types of collars.

The Halite, I don't like the look but so what if the collar works great, 
use it!  I think it's the lesser of all the evils on the list...  It's a 
tool not a crutch.  You don't have to use them for ever but they do work 
for distraction.  Distraction needs to be combatted and not in a harsh 
way.  Harshness with distraction only feeds into it.

The flat linked "choke" my tool of choice.  All this talk about hurting the 
esophagus has been around for years.  Medical fact by 6 months the 
esophagus is not soft any longer and your not going to hurt the dog.  If 
you really want to use the collar appropriately you need to take a training 
seminar put on by the Lambs a husband wife team who I highly endorse.  I 
will get their schedule and pass it on they travel through out the US 
putting on seminars  on their training methods.  It's well worth the 
weekend.  Linda and Perry flew down here to attend one with us and Linda 
used Scarlette who had zip training on her and has always pulled on the 
leash.  I will let Linda elaborate on this.  But if used properly this is 
probably the best of the choices. I can show anyone how to use it properly 
as ya know I am a trainer too, contrary to what might be thought! 
<LOL>  You know not just the dumb breeder of poorly bred, temperamental, 
wild dogs...

Flat soft collars, I use them on most of my dogs after they know the 
commands and actually trained SeaJay with one all the way through his 
CGC.  BTW at the CGC level your not allowed to use a chain collar must be a 
flat buckle collar...  Hum...   I did also train SeaJay at the Lambs 
seminar with their method with the FLAT link training collar "choke".  In a 
separate post I will tell you the difference between a training collar and 
a choke.

Prong/Pinch collar:  I subscribe to a diffrent book than most with these 
collars.  Years ago when I was training for competition obedience (bty 
these collars are not allowed in competition)  I was taught to teach the 
dog on a flat link collar and once the dog *understood* the commands fully 
which your dogs *do not* to improve hone skills use the pinch collar.  The 
theory is not control but change to pinch verses correction of pop release 
to increase reaction.  I do not endorse the use of these collars for 
control.  99.9% of the "trainers" out there (btw there is no qualifications 
to call your self a trainer)  don't know how to fit a pinch collar 
correctly.  I know how but I can't tell you I would have to show 
you.    However the true concept of these collars is to deliver a pinch to 
get attention.  Sounds good eh?  Humane?  Attention getting?  NO!  they 
bruise the skin break down the tissue, how is that humane?  Attention 
getting not, just as easy to ignore and maybe even more reason to shut 
down.  For fine tuning only in my book and for very limited use.   How 
adamant am I on this?  I am considering putting it in my contract that NO 
pinch/prong collars will ever be used for "training as an initial tool" on 
any Brier dog.  I sincerely hope that you will all resist this tool and 
it's misuse.  At Cascade Obedience Club where I train and have for 5 years 
as well as assist on occasion we don't even allow them in the building on 
beginners.  We won't instruct on how to use them.  Why?  Because they are 
used improperly by 99.99% of all inexperienced people looking for the *easy 
way out*!!!

Now what do I think you should all use:  obviously flat link training 
collars.  Or flat buckle or Halties.   But more importantly NO collar.  Get 
your dogs attention and his respect, don't use crutches use 
tools.  Clickers, commands, treats....

I have got to go but I hope that this is EDUCATIONAL!

Gina