Re: Training and collars

["Carol Jackson" <thejacksons@dellnet.com>]

Lisa:

I just had to reply on this!!!  this is near and dear to me also!!!!

This trainer would have been walking on quick sand with me!!!  I have never
heard anyone who would point out a puppy jumping up and mouthing you as a
temperament problem!!!! What a BI!!!!!!!  I am so glad that you let him jump
on her at every class, I think I would have spazed him up before and
encouraged him to knock her down and comment about that nasty temperament
problem you know!!!  What a crock!!!  She reminds me of a lady in Safeway
when my son was about 6 months old.  He was crying which was only because he
was tired.  She passed judgement without even knowing us.  "You are going to
have problems with that child if you do not spank him right now and let him
know who is boss and that it is not alright to cry in the store"!!!!!!!
Just like this trainer, passing judgement as a know it all who should have
just kept their mouth shut!!!!  BTW, my son is the most well behaved little
guy and I did not have to beat him to show him who is boss!!!

Hunter does this also, he is just saying hello.  We have not made a big
issue with it.  we tell him off and he is praised for correct behavior.  He
jumps up, but beside us and not on us most of the time, but we really like
the affection he gives us, sure, some of our shirts have small holes in it,
but when our kids were little all of our shirts had stains on the shoulder
from various baby stuff, it went away with the baby stage, I think this
mouthing will go away with gentle persuasion with his baby stage also.

Thank you for letting me vent about this trainer!!!

Lisa, I would love to get some info about the Columbia Dog Academy, could we
converse about that  maybe through our own e-mail without clogging up the
group with the e-mails.  Our address is thejacksons@dellnet.com  I would
like to have Hunter go for some thing to help us walk better together.

Thanks!!
Carol Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: Greg, Lisa, Holly & Kasey Cooper <gscooper@uswest.net>
To: <brierpups@fast.cs.utah.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Training and collars


> Hello everyone.  WARNING: This message is longer then I entended.  I'm
Lisa
> Cooper the mother of Kasey, of the moon litter.  I haven't taken the
> opportunity to write you all, but you have hit on a topic that is near and
dear
> to the Coopers' hearts.  Kasey and the Cooper family (Holly 8 yr daughter,
Greg
> husband, and I) just finished a six week Puppy Kindergarten class from a
local
> trainer in Clark County WA.  Kasey our former sock eating, 40 something
pound
> moon puppy is always so excited to meet and greet new people and fellow
> canines.  However he hasn't befriend our new trainer.  Mouthing and
pouncing on
> the trainer at first sight of the first class created quite an impression
with
> her.  She made the comment that this is a troubling temperaments she has
seen a
> lot in goldens lately and she didn't really understand why this is being
> brought out in the blood line. I don't know what that was suppose to mean?
> Now we were insulted, but brushed it off as Kasey was just a puppy in a
new
> environment.  Other then trying to keep Kasey under control , we all did
great
> learning new commands.  Kasey has learned Come, Sit-Down-Sit,
Stand-Down-Stand,
> Heal, Leave-it and Stay. All of which he does exceptionally well with
treats
> when we are in our back yard. We only work with Kasey about 15 mins per
day on
> all his commands, this seems to be enough for our hyper puppy.  Holly and
Kasey
> are doing pretty good on  these commands, she just needs to use a louder
voice.
>
> Anyway back to the class.  At the beginning of the first class the trainer
went
> over the collar options, including all the ones mentions in the previous
> messages.  She recommended the training nylon collar that tightens under
the
> neck like a choke chain or the halter head collar.  She thought the two
Labs,
> the Shepherd and Kasey should have a head collar.  She talked about how
this
> collar rested on nerves that helps calm the dog.  We chose not to the try
the
> head collar because I was not familiar with this type of collar and wasn't
> interested in trying everything this trainer wanted to sell us.  So every
> Tuesday we went to this class watching Kasey jump and mouth the trainer.
Each
> time Kasey mouthed or jumped she would give us suggestions that should
work in
> breaking  these habits.  She said to try "Bitter Apple" spray on our hands
to
> prevent the mouthing.  This works as long as you have it with you and
spray
> people that approach Kasey before they got to him.   She asked us to
ignore
> Kasey when we first greeted him if he started jumping.  Both worked, but
> consistency was important.  The one thing she suggest that worked the best
was
> to not touch Kasey and  make him sit when we greeted him.  Only pet and
praise
> him after he sits.  If he starts to mouth put the hands behind the back
until
> he stops.  This has really started to work.  He now knows  to sit anytime
he
> greets us.  We really need to keep working on the unfamiliar people that
> approach him.
>
> Anyway back to the collar.  The class was going well, except Kasey would
not
> stay focused.  He would get really distracted , more so then any of the
other 6
> dogs in the class.  Three of these dogs had head collars.  The trainer
kept
> insisting that we try a head collar on Kasey because he was having a
difficult
> time staying  focused.  We continued to refuse the offer, and insisted
that we
> would just keep working with him.
>
> The last class- all the dogs including the three dogs with the head
collars
> where focused, and well behaved.  Kasey was still not very focused, and
still
> trying to jump and mouth the trainer.  So she said please let's try a head
> collar, you will see the difference.  So I allowed her to put this collar
on
> Kasey.  He hated the collar and was acting like a wild horse that someone
was
> trying to break.  I almost started a fight with this trainer, determine
not to
> let this trainer that I have grown to dislike, humiliate my dog in class.
I
> kept my emotions intake for a few more minutes.  Within no time at all,
Kasey
> was relaxed and focused.  The trainer was having him do every command
without
> any problems.  I was amazed.  So I worked the rest of the class with this
> collar.  I was amazed at the different that this collar has made.  We took
the
> collar home.  I have used it for a week every time we take Kasey out into
> public.  We were instructed not to ever pull on his head because it will
damage
> the tendons and nerves.  So we have been extremely careful.
>
> I am still not convinced that this is the best collar and all the messages
> regarding training and collars has been very educational.  I would prefer
not
> to use this collar but I do see the difference.   We still don't know what
> direction to go with the collar.
>
> Gina thanks for your thoughts on training. One things for sure, we are
> switching to a different trainer, Columbia Dog Academy over by PDX.
Anyway
> that is enough rambling from me.  Maybe I will try to write more often.
Thanks
> for all the great messages, we really enjoy hearing from you all.  I bet
you
> are all glad I don't write too often,
> Love our "Moon" baby, Lisa Cooper
>
> Bill & Patti Oftedal wrote:
>
> > Hi Macen and Lori,
> >
> > It looks like that Bogey and Diablo are very similar on temperament,
> > I don't have to use any training collars for him, he's good on not
pulling.
> > We are using (if I need one) the adjustable choke collar, made it out of
> > nylon and they come on different width, from 5/8" to 1".
> > In Valdez we have no puppy or training classes of any kind, so I get
> > books or videos, and traing myself first and then I teach my dogs.
> >
> > Love
> >
> > Patti. (Diablo's and Goldie mamma)
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Macen Shinsato <macen@foxinternet.net>
> > To: brierpups@fast.cs.utah.edu <brierpups@fast.cs.utah.edu>
> > Date: Monday, October 16, 2000 1:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: Training and collars
> >
> > >Hi Renee,
> > >
> > >Thinking has changed so much on collars since
> > >we had our first Golden in obedience classes
> > >12 years ago!  Then, we were told to buy a flat
> > >link choke chain and taught to use it correctly--i.e.
> > >a short, sharp tug and quick release.  The flat link
> > >chain seemed to cause less hair loss for our dog's
> > >long hair.  Prong collars were only advised for
> > >out of control and potentially dangerous animals.
> > >
> > >I was appalled to find current trainers recommending
> > >prong collars to everyone when we started Bogey's
> > >training.  I understand the difficulty of using a choke
> > >chain without choking the dog--but it seems training
> > >classes are mostly for the owners anyway--isn't this
> > >trainable?  The prong collars just look awful!
> > >
> > >We found a fourth option which worked well for Bogey.
> > >It is a collar made of wide fabric which acts like a choke
> > >chain in its action but is not as harsh or potentially
> > >damaging to the dog's throat.  We were able to get it
> > >at our tiny neighborhood pet store and I've seen them at
> > >large stores like Petco but don't remember what they're
> > >called.  Bogey has always been a really calm guy--not
> > >a lot of pulling on lead.  So this collar was really great
> > >for him.  I'm not sure how it would work for a more
> > >rambunctious dog.  Just thought you might like to know
> > >of one more option.  It will be really great to hear what
> > >all the trainers on the list think about training collars.
> > >
> > >Good luck with those classes.  Lori
> > >
> > >"J. Renee Brooks" wrote:
> > >
> > >> start her basic obedience class.  We had the first orientation class
> > >> without the dogs where they went over many things I already knew, but
> > >> they brought up collars.  Leigh and I have discussed this issue with
> > >> Gina before, but I would like to share with you what "Best Friends
> > >> Obedience School" had to say and get your input because I am still
> > >> struggling with what to do.
> > >
>